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Question: Was the killing of Osama justified...is it ever justifiable to kill anyone else regardless of the circumstances?
Killing another human being is never justified - 1 (33.3%)
Killing is sometimes justifiable - just not in this case - 1 (33.3%)
Killing is sometimes justifiable - as was the killing of Osama - 1 (33.3%)
Killing anything is wrong - 0 (0%)
Total Voters: 3

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Author Topic: On Purposeful Killing Of Another - Any Justification?  (Read 1720 times)
Shiroi Tora
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« on: May 14, 2011, 04:32:58 PM »

My take on the need to have killed Osama...

Some people need to die. Those who intentionally kill innocent people are predators. He thought himself to be a lion of the desert. He thought he was the top predator. No animal is on top of the food chain...it is the big game hunter.

Through intelligence and patience...careful tracking of the prey...anyone can be gotten. This is what the good people around the world MUST do to protect all from predators. You must make them the prey...make them hide for their measly little lives...make them cringe with fear...waiting for that whisper in the dark.

It is not tit for tat. It is we...teaching them...the sacred lesson of the sanctity of life. To fail at this lesson... is to learn the real meaning of terror...and to forfeit the right to co-exist peacefully with us.
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Alex (my son) - 2E Child (Asperger's / Profoundly Gifted)
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Shiroi Tora
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« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2011, 08:52:21 PM »

Hmmm...no takers?  Too racy for this forum?  Shall I close this?  Not interesting?  Disagree with the concept?  Think I am a barbarian?  Is there (cricket noise) anybody out (cricket noise)there?
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Alex (my son) - 2E Child (Asperger's / Profoundly Gifted)
http://2echild.blogspot.com
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« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2011, 02:38:01 AM »

This is one of those old should we hang all murderers debate.  I feel that sometimes killing may be justified if your trying to protect somebody from some one and may be in some cases with extreme murderers but as whole I believe there probably is no need and with killing osama it gave me not much joy and I just know that they will replace him with some possiblely worse.  Thats just my view.
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why get anxious in life about not having friends or anything for that matter what help impossible for people to provide or that they wont provide is possible for god and he will provide.  Book of matthew last versus "low I am with you always even to the end of the world amen"
Shiroi Tora
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« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2011, 05:02:15 AM »

No...actually this is much more.  It involved a military action in a foreign land....with no trial.  Neither of which our laws condone for application in the borders of our country.

Was it necessary...absolutely so.  Was it right...absolutely so.

This was not just about what he had done...it was about what he has continued to do...and what he planned to do in the future.

Osama was in a unique position of being able to funnel tens of millions of Saudi dollars (equivalent) into his terrorist activities.  Also, in order to protect himself...he had to compartmentalize his operations.  Although, his next in line has the basic concepts...he doesn't have the whole organization mapped out as had Osama. 

If you think he will just be replaced by someone worse...then arresting him would have necessitated his being replaced also.  So what is there left...to not do anything?  Obviously not.

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Alex (my son) - 2E Child (Asperger's / Profoundly Gifted)
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Felgen
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« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2011, 09:05:58 PM »

Killing is only justifiable if it's the lesser of two evils, which is almost never the case, regardless of whether the offender is a paedophile, a serial killer or in this case a terrorist.
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zenemu
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« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2011, 02:31:26 PM »

I agree with Felgen.

For me, capital punishment is nothing more or less than a legalised form of premeditated murder. In the UK, the last execution was in 1964, and was abolished in 1971 (except in cases of piracy with violence and treason, which were removed in 1998 having never been enforced).

Personally I am not particularly religious – I have never seen any evidence on an eternal soul or a god passing judgement on us all. I am best described as agnostic, because I have nothing against those views either. What strikes me as odd is having western countries that base their society on judeo-christian ethics and then feel that their society has the right to or is somehow morally justified to take the life of another human being in the name of justice.

I am not against the taking of life per se. I believe consensual euthanasia is often morally justified to prevent pain and suffering. I believe that abortion (within the first 24 week’s, before rapid brain development occurs and the nervous system is established) is often justifiable (although not to be taken lightly). I accept that man is flawed and that ultimately for political reasons (the war in Iraq for example) are inevitable, although I would point out that one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter – you only have to look at the history of Northern Ireland to understand just how true that can be. Many of those who were considered terrorists and were imprisoned as such are now leaders in a government which is slowly but surely unifying a fractured country.

In the case of Osama, it has been hailed as a killing to end a war – it won’t. Bin Laden was never anything more than a figurehead of a small extremist group. There will always be those who are willing to be influenced by that particular brand of extremism and the amount of anti-Islamic feeling the west has raised is nothing short of appalling.
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Shiroi Tora
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« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2011, 02:50:21 PM »

Capital Punishment - so long as their is no doubt...not just reasonable...conclusive evidence based upon physical or conclusive circumstantial evidence...never upon witness testimony alone.  Then yes.

I am with you on Euthanasia and abortion.

Now...here is where we diverge...one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter only applies when they attack valid military targets.  Never the specific targeting of innocent civilians...ever.  That is what made Osama NOT a freedom fighter...but a terrorist.  There is no other way to look at it.

No, not looked upon as a killing to end a war.  Others shall rise...we must rinse and repeat. 

In the US and many other countries...major organized crime (mafia types) have a strict order against the public killing of innocents (that can be tied back to them) as they know they would be relentlessly hunted down.  That is why they do not do it.

India suffered for over 200 years under the Thugees (Thugs)...a criminal organization that preyed upon innocent victims...they were only stopped after they were relentlessly hunted down and exterminated by the British.

The average American does not hate Islam...just the extreme groups of it.  We are a very forgiving nation...and tolerant towards other religions..and ethnic groups...I would dare say more so than any other nation on Earth.
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Alex (my son) - 2E Child (Asperger's / Profoundly Gifted)
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« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2011, 04:19:42 PM »

Capital Punishment - so long as their is no doubt...not just reasonable...conclusive evidence based upon physical or conclusive circumstantial evidence...never upon witness testimony alone.  Then yes.

I am with you on Euthanasia and abortion.

Now...here is where we diverge...one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter only applies when they attack valid military targets.  Never the specific targeting of innocent civilians...ever.  That is what made Osama NOT a freedom fighter...but a terrorist.  There is no other way to look at it.

No, not looked upon as a killing to end a war.  Others shall rise...we must rinse and repeat. 

In the US and many other countries...major organized crime (mafia types) have a strict order against the public killing of innocents (that can be tied back to them) as they know they would be relentlessly hunted down.  That is why they do not do it.

India suffered for over 200 years under the Thugees (Thugs)...a criminal organization that preyed upon innocent victims...they were only stopped after they were relentlessly hunted down and exterminated by the British.

The average American does not hate Islam...just the extreme groups of it.  We are a very forgiving nation...and tolerant towards other religions..and ethnic groups...I would dare say more so than any other nation on Earth.

It seems to be that in the end there are always questions that must be asked by the people and government alike, but rarely are, such as: Do the ends justify the means?

The war in Iraq was considered a success based on the downfall of Sadam, but lets be realistic here –helping the people of Iraq to remove a dictator was secondary to the problem of Sadam having to much influence and control on Middle Eastern oil production.

Since the "War on Terror" started, the cost in civilian lives over the past decade in Iraq and Afghanistan, has far outweighed the loss of civilian life elsewhere? Also how many groups such as the "Kill Team" have been allowed to break or at least bend the rules of engagement without censure, which were only really exposed by a mistake?

The truth is that allied forces went into these zones for largely political and economic reasons, questions about civilian’s casualties and human rights were quite far down the list.

Then there is the horrendous loss of life within the allied forces, young men and women who will never come home again and lost their lives and those who continue to risk them every day.

War is an ugly business, and sometimes it is necessary, but not for political reasons, such as those in Iraq, and there comes a point where you have to question the cost in lives on both sides of the war in Afghanistan. The attack on 9/11 was horrific, as was the 7/7 attack in London, but when has enough blood been spilt? And how many lives need to be destroyed until enough is enough? The world will never be free of extremism, and continuing for this length of time serves only to fuel that particular fire.
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Shiroi Tora
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« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2011, 06:05:32 PM »

To not do that which is right for fear of retribution...is to ensure it stays forever.

To take care of problems in the beginning...saves ultimately...in the end.  To say when enough is enough is to lose by default to those evil and stubborn enough to do anything...as they know that they just need to win the battle of wills (as in Osama's own words...bloody their noses...they will run off) this includes parenting also.  To lose the battle of wills may gain temporary respite...but you will then inherit misery for a lifetime.  They will forever know that with enough pressure...you will fold...and so they will keep upping the ante till you quit.  

There are somethings worth fighting over...freedom from terror is one of them.  If the win at all costs is evil and valid to say to us...why not say it to the aggressors and not to the victims?  You cannot bargain with the devil...some people will not stop until they are stopped.  
« Last Edit: May 19, 2011, 06:14:45 PM by Shiroi Tora » Logged

Alex (my son) - 2E Child (Asperger's / Profoundly Gifted)
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Felgen
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« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2011, 06:38:32 PM »

To not do that which is right for fear of retribution...is to ensure it stays forever.

To take care of problems in the beginning...saves ultimately...end the end.  To say when enough is enough is to lose by default to those evil and stubborn enough to do anything...as they know that they just need to win the battle of wills (as in Osama's own words...bloody their noses...they will run off) this includes parenting also.  To lose the battle of wills may gain temporary respite...but you will then inherit misery for a lifetime.  They will forever know that with enough pressure...you will fold...and so they will keep upping the ante till you quit. 

There are somethings worth fighting over...freedom from terror is one of them.  If the win at all costs is evil and valid to say to us...why not say it to the aggressors and not to the victims?  You cannot bargain with the devil...some people will not stop until they are stopped. 

My guess is that the killing of Bin Laden won't stop Al Qaida more than the killing of Che Guevara stopped the Cuban communists. If they had kept both of these assholes alive, then they could have studied the psychology of terrorists and learned more about them.
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« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2011, 06:44:02 PM »

I agree, of course there are things worth fighting for. Terrorism is unacceptable. My point is that nothing will change in terms of extremism. By fighting for a decade, I don't really see how we have saved ultimately. I'm also not comfortable with words like good and evil. In my experience nothing is as black and white as that. If there is one lesson we should learn from Northern Ireland is that terrorism gets people nowhere, but neither does imposing your views and politics on a society. Ultimately peace comes in the form of negotiation and diplomacy, unfortunately in the current situation that simply cannot heppen and the troops in Afganistan can never guaruntee freedom from terror. In theory, this situation could continue for the next sixty years, just as it did in Northern Ireland. I am not personally convinced the cost in lives is worth that.
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