Capitalism vs. Socialism and our natural human functions.

[MissNewZealand]

As a human, it stands to reason that we (even aspies) are natually dependent on others. We are only able to exist as a society (collectively), otherwise there would not be any existence. Because we are co dependent on each other, it makes us naturally social creatures.
I'm not saying that we are naturally outgoing, and outgoing. The point is, no matter how hard we try; we are always influenced by each other (and an influence to others).

So, if we are natually collectivistic; the Capitalist ideals aren't best suited for us as it seperates us, and teaches us to be self-centered. It seperates us from our collectivistic nature. That is why some say that Socialist/Communist ideals are better. These attributes have disappeared due to the compromising structure of capitalism. So, I take it as we aren't natually greedy. We were driven to be greedy by political/social influence.

Personally, I think we should have kept this collectivism. I won't go into much detail on this forum (for obvious reasons). if we had kept this sense of collective economy, and less focused on personal gain, much of the inequality in most western countries would greatly decrease.

What do you all think?

[MM]

I think you will find that neither extreme is good.  All you have too look at either russia when it was communist and america now.  Too much captialism creates an all about me attitude and it does not matter who I trample on and too much socialism has good intentions but human beings need there own space.  America no universal health care, terrible job conditions for poorer workers and your pretty much left on your own(ie not much of a wellfare system).  I think the best examples are places like france or the uk and the commonwealth countries(austalia,canada and nz).  Education is free or subsidised, health care is universal and jobs are safe and secure but you can also become wealthy without having to rip people off and good wellfare systems.  I think a happy medium between the two can be found.

[Nie]

capitalism as they say is for those who have what it takes to survive and thrive in a competitive environment. it allows those who can, to grab what they want. humans in nature are already self centered anyway, and in truth this personal pursuit to better oneself is what benefits the species as a whole.

[Felgen]

I'm pro-capitalism, allthough I'm not one of those crazy "get rid of all labour rights and all welfare" activists. Capitalism is the reason why Northern America and Western Europe got industrialized in the first place. Also, compare the Post-Soviet states who retained thei socialism (eg. Belarus or Moldavia) with the states than converted to capitalism (eg. Latvia or Estonia), and you'll see a significant difference in standard of living (heck, socialism is what killed the Soviet Union in the first place).

[Marco]

I'm pro-capitalism, allthough I'm not one of those crazy "get rid of all labour rights and all welfare" activists. Capitalism is the reason why Northern America and Western Europe got industrialized in the first place. Also, compare the Post-Soviet states who retained thei socialism (eg. Belarus or Moldavia) with the states than converted to capitalism (eg. Latvia or Estonia), and you'll see a significant difference in standard of living (heck, socialism is what killed the Soviet Union in the first place).

and it is capitalism that is sucking the poorer countries dry. Capitalism only supports a few at the top at the expense of the many. Maybe you haven't traveled. Maybe you think that all these people want to be so poor.

[Felgen]

and it is capitalism that is sucking the poorer countries dry. Capitalism only supports a few at the top at the expense of the many. Maybe you haven't traveled. Maybe you think that all these people want to be so poor.

I find it ironic then, that Haiti, Zimbabwe, Somalia, Eritrea and other extremely poor countries are all socialist. In 1950, South Korea was even poorer than Kenya and had a life expectancy at birth of 48 years. Today, they have a higher life expectancy than Denmark and the US. In 1950, Singapore had a convergence rate of 6 (US = 100), today this country has the world's lowest infant mortality rate and is among the top five countries in life expectancy. Between 1950 and 1973, Japan set the world record for economic growth, going from a war-torn, deindustrialized state to the 2. most economicaly important nation in the world.

[Marco]

I find it ironic then, that Haiti, Zimbabwe, Somalia, Eritrea and other extremely poor countries are all socialist. In 1950, South Korea was even poorer than Kenya and had a life expectancy at birth of 48 years. Today, they have a higher life expectancy than Denmark and the US. In 1950, Singapore had a convergence rate of 6 (US = 100), today this country has the world's lowest infant mortality rate and is among the top five countries in life expectancy. Between 1950 and 1973, Japan set the world record for economic growth, going from a war-torn, deindustrialized state to the 2. most economicaly important nation in the world.

Since when has Haiti been socialist? I have a friend here from Zimbabwe - I am seeing him this weekend so I will ask him the status of the country that he cannot return to, but I don't think he will say it is socialist. Can you define what you mean by socialist?  In fact does anyone know of a true socialist country - don't mention totalitarian countries.

[Felgen]

Since when has Haiti been socialist? I have a friend here from Zimbabwe - I am seeing him this weekend so I will ask him the status of the country that he cannot return to, but I don't think he will say it is socialist. Can you define what you mean by socialist?  In fact does anyone know of a true socialist country - don't mention totalitarian countries.

Robert Mugabe is a self-proclaimed marxist and the economy during his first years as a president was modeled after the perestrojka. Today, it follows the same model as Cuba, but I don't think it will implement the upcoming Cuban market reforms. Haiti is economically quite similar to China.

Whereas capitalism is a free market economy (Hong kong or Singapore, for instance) or mixed economy leaning toward the free market (Taiwan, the US, Norway, Israel etc.), socialism uses a planned economy (eg. North Korea or pre-perestrojka USSR) or a mixed economy leaning toward planned economy (Cuba, Laos, China etc.). Why exactly can't a socialist country be authoritarian? The USSR is widely recognized as the world's first socialistic country, despite the fact that Lenin started his career as a chairman by persecuting christians, other socialist groups and starting a genocide on cossacks. Karl Marx even claimed that tyranny might be inevitable during the first phase of communism.

[Nie]

Capitalism Ho!

I guess a game that comically displays capitalism would be Recettear, if you know what you are doing and you work hard you can get rich by selling things - from being puny and buried in debt to a life of luxury. If you just suck and slack off, even if you start off as rich, well... you will eventually end up living in a card board box and lose your business, your home and everything.

[MissNewZealand]

Capitalism is a vicious cycle where those at the top continuously prosper, while those who are at the bottem continuously sink into poverty. The wealthy gain more from the exploitation of the lower classes, which then creates a false conciousness among the lower classes.
By exploiting them, the wealthy control and manipulate the lower class into thinking that they are to blame for the chaos that the inequality causes. Instead of being angry at the wealthy, the lower class is often angry at each other, when in all truth, they really shouldnt be.

A sad, but vicious cycle.

There has to be something better, and healthier than this for our society.

[Marco]

I think that capitalism is teetering on the brink of collapse just now.

[Felgen]

Capitalism is a vicious cycle where those at the top continuously prosper, while those who are at the bottem continuously sink into poverty. The wealthy gain more from the exploitation of the lower classes, which then creates a false conciousness among the lower classes.
By exploiting them, the wealthy control and manipulate the lower class into thinking that they are to blame for the chaos that the inequality causes. Instead of being angry at the wealthy, the lower class is often angry at each other, when in all truth, they really shouldnt be.

A sad, but vicious cycle.

There has to be something better, and healthier than this for our society.

Is it any different in socialism? "All the animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others." Furthermore, the two countries with the most achievement based form of status is Norway and the US, according to Richard Gesteland. Socialist countries, on the other hand, almost always has an ascribed form of inequality. A Cuban prostitute (this is legal in Cuba and it's not regulated) will for example earn 80 dollars per night, but a Cuban doctor will only earn 22 dollars a month.

[Felgen]

I think that capitalism is teetering on the brink of collapse just now.

Why is that? The recent financial crisis isn't nearly as severe as the great depression was.

[Marco]

Is it any different in socialism? "All the animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others." Furthermore, the two countries with the most achievement based form of status is Norway and the US, according to Richard Gesteland. Socialist countries, on the other hand, almost always has an ascribed form of inequality. A Cuban prostitute (this is legal in Cuba and it's not regulated) will for example earn 80 dollars per night, but a Cuban doctor will only earn 22 dollars a month.

The prostitute might earn US dollars but the doctor will earn Cuban currency. You are not being accurate. Cuba runs on 2 currencies. If you go to Cuba you can have two coffee shops together but you can only go into the one designated for you. I know that the wages are low but to say that someone lives on 22 dollars is almost impossible.

[Felgen]

The prostitute might earn US dollars but the doctor will earn Cuban currency. You are not being accurate. Cuba runs on 2 currencies. If you go to Cuba you can have two coffee shops together but you can only go into the one designated for you. I know that the wages are low but to say that someone lives on 22 dollars is almost impossible.

Cuba uses reular pesos and convertible pesos (the former isn't worth a damn outside of Cuba). A doctor receives a certain amount of money in both currencies. Regular pesos are used for rations, rent and so on. Convertible pesos can be used for all that AS WELL as luxuries such as television sets, computers, internet cafés and alloy wheels, to mention a few. Customers who can pay in hard currency will also have access to better medical treatment than regular Cubans. To make some people even more equal, prostitutes aren't taxed, since prostitution in Cuba isn't regulated. So much for equality.