Capitalism vs. Socialism and our natural human functions.

[ukenkerl]

Capitalism is a vicious cycle where those at the top continuously prosper, while those who are at the bottem continuously sink into poverty. The wealthy gain more from the exploitation of the lower classes, which then creates a false conciousness among the lower classes.
By exploiting them, the wealthy control and manipulate the lower class into thinking that they are to blame for the chaos that the inequality causes. Instead of being angry at the wealthy, the lower class is often angry at each other, when in all truth, they really shouldnt be.

A sad, but vicious cycle.

There has to be something better, and healthier than this for our society.

Wrong!  People at the top CAN lose, and people at the bottom can win.  And the only ones that continuously sink into poverty are those that WANT to!  And those that work for others are not necessarily in another class.  And WHAT are you talking about with "false conciousness"?  SOME RY to create a mythos that  SOME people are paying an unjustly low amount of money and the business has trillions of dollars and can pay like $100,000 to every worker for turning a couple screws.  

THEY are the reason for the airlines, and GM going bankrupt.  THEY are the reason for the subprime mortgages, etc...  The fact is that $50,000 isn't that much to those companies, but  multiplied by THOUSANDS of employees,  they CAN’T afford it.  Eventually, they go BANKRUPT!  And if ***I*** am only able to buy a home that is worth 3 times my yearly  income, why should the poor be allowed to buy any more?  Eventually, the lenders have to foreclose or go BANKRUPT!

As for there being something better?  It was better before that stupid mythos!  Socialism doesn't work.  It enforces a superclass with all others being subjugated.  If that superclass fails, then ALL suffer.  SURE the poor might be better off, but EVERYONE else, except those at the very top, SUFFERS!  And communism is even WORSE.  

How can ANYONE forget the USSR and EAST GERMANY?  HECK, even CUBA?  CHINA?  They were/are NOT free!  Many had limited goods.  Most of the goods were poor quality.

BTW I made an obsession with computers into a well paying job.  Aspies do NOT have to be as bad off as you claim!

[AngryVirgin]

Communism was invented long before USSR, while in soviet Russia, the Government owned everything, in real communist society people own everything. That means no classes, no superiors, no need for greed.

ukenkerl you do realise that when people get paid 100k, goods will be priced at same level.

[ukenkerl]

Communism was invented long before USSR, while in soviet Russia, the Government owned everything, in real communist society people own everything. That means no classes, no superiors, no need for greed.

The odd thing is that I have often said the same thing.  BUT, ironically, I have said so to counter the idea that any such country should call itself communist.  ALAS,  communism requires a central organization and you know what they say about absolute power....  The USSR started because of CLASS WARFARE.  The idea was to make everyone equal.  The result was that many rich DID lose money, and the poor ended up WORSE off.  People at the POLITICAL top ended up doing well.

BTW on COMMUNEs, about as close to REAL communism as you will get, they EXPECT you to help!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commune

Andrew Jacobs of The New York Times wrote that, contrary to popular misconceptions, "most communes of the 90's are not free-love refuges for flower children, but well-ordered, financially solvent cooperatives where pragmatics, not psychedelics, rule the day."[1]

ukenkerl you do realise that when people get paid 100k, goods will be priced at same level.

I think you are referring to another thing I have often said.  If everyone were paid 100K, the average income in the US would TRIPLE!  That means PRICES would have to go up to support that income.  The average buying power would be the same as NOW!  It is called INFLATION!  Isn't it odd that as they raise taxes and wages that prices go up?  THEY would have you believe it is MAGIC.  It ISN'T.

[zenemu]

Communisim and socialism are in theory wonderful ideas - unfortunately every time those ideas have been put into policy, it becomes very evident that they are very open to corruption.

[Felgen]

Prostitution is in fact illegal - a woman gets 4 years and her pimp 20 years in jail. As with any country down here the police will take a payoff to bulk their wages out. In this country, if you are white, they will milk you for as much as they can if you break the law, I can only assume it is similar there.

Anyone over 17 can sell their own body in Cuba. Pimping, renting rooms for the purpose of prostitution, operationg brothels and so on is illegal, selling your own body isn't. The Cuban sex industry was among the first to benefit from the ease of internet cencorship in 2007.

[Felgen]

Communism was invented long before USSR, while in soviet Russia, the Government owned everything, in real communist society people own everything. That means no classes, no superiors, no need for greed.

Actually, in the first phase of communism, the people doesn't own everything. If you regulate the market too much, some people will inevitably become "more equal" than others. The Chinese say that "tea is still tea in a cracked cup".

ukenkerl you do realise that when people get paid 100k, goods will be priced at same level.

What about goods that are imported from a Western-European or American coorporation? The entire software industry is dependent on either Intel or Microsoft, one way or the other. The entire car industry (more or less) relies heavily on fuel pumps from Bosch, which are priced in correlation with German wages (+ national taxes) regardless of where they are sold.

[ukenkerl]

Actually, in the first phase of communism, the people doesn't own everything. If you regulate the market too much, some people will inevitably become "more equal" than others. The Chinese say that "tea is still tea in a cracked cup".

Well, REAL  communism would be like everything was supported by the government equal to need, etc...  In some scifi utopian societies, that sort of thing is done on a sort of credit system.  Of course, a credit system means a way of stealing, etc...   And how do you encourage innovation and production?  HEY, the USSR had problemss with BOTH off those areas.

What about goods that are imported from a Western-European or American coorporation? The entire software industry is dependent on either Intel or Microsoft, one way or the other. The entire car industry (more or less) relies heavily on fuel pumps from Bosch, which are priced in correlation with German wages (+ national taxes) regardless of where they are sold.

It is a MYTH that intel or microsoft built the software industry.  In actuality, they were both built BY it.  Even INTEL as it exists today.  They had to design a calculator chip but figured it would be easier and better to build an MPU.  The 4004! 

And the fuel pump cost is a minor portion of the cost overall.  So YEAH, if its price increases the price of the car may increase, but few would notice the slight price increase.  AGAIN, that is like what I said about the car industry.  Giving ONE employee a ridiculously high salary is no big deal.  Giving ALL such a salary would bankrupt the company.

[AngryVirgin]

oh economics is such a mess, doubt you can untangle it anymore.
Its like Wikipedia, you start with one topic and when you reach end of the page you have twenty different tabs open.
It'll take at least a millennium or two before we can even start thinking about resource based economy.

[Felgen]

Well, REAL  communism would be like everything was supported by the government equal to need, etc...  In some scifi utopian societies, that sort of thing is done on a sort of credit system.  Of course, a credit system means a way of stealing, etc...   And how do you encourage innovation and production?  HEY, the USSR had problemss with BOTH off those areas.

The USSR didn't have problems with innovation (notice how advanced the Soviet military was, for instance). All political ideologies develop over time, thus the USSR was real communism. If the USSR weren't communistic because of a few deviations, the USA aren't capitalistic because of a few deviations.

It is a MYTH that intel or microsoft built the software industry.  In actuality, they were both built BY it.  Even INTEL as it exists today.  They had to design a calculator chip but figured it would be easier and better to build an MPU.  The 4004! 

And the fuel pump cost is a minor portion of the cost overall.  So YEAH, if its price increases the price of the car may increase, but few would notice the slight price increase.  AGAIN, that is like what I said about the car industry.  Giving ONE employee a ridiculously high salary is no big deal.  Giving ALL such a salary would bankrupt the company.

I never claimed that Intel or Microsoft built the software industry. However, the entire software industry is dependent on the x86 architecture. The car industry is heavilly based on 3. party developers from Europe, South Korea and Japan, thus a car developer in a 3. world country won't be able to make cars cheap enough for a cuban to own one without bankrupting the car industry.

[AngryVirgin]

http://mitworld.mit.edu/video/182